Interview broadcast on the Bill Handel show on KFI Radio 640 Los Angeles on Thursday, July 17, with David J. Undis, Executive Director of LifeSharers.

Click here to listen to a sound recording of the interview.

Unofficial transcript:

WAYNE RESNICK (Guest Host):  Well, we all know, sort of in the back of our minds, that if our liver failed us or our kidney failed us we’d have a hard time getting a replacement because there are so many people who need organs, and there are so few organs available, and people die every single day because they can’t get an organ that they need.  In fact, the statistics that I just looked up say that about 17 people every single day lose their life because there’s not enough organs.  There’s been a lot of talk about reforming the system.  We have on the line here a man who has an idea of his own and he started an organization called LifeSharers.  Let’s bring him on now.  Dave Undis, thank you for joining us on KFI.

UNDIS:  How are you doing?

RESNICK:  Very, very good.  First, let’s explain to the people how it works now.  The current organ donation system goes back to 1984 when there was a Congressional act passed, the National Organ Transplant Act.  As I understand it, you have these regional organ procurement non-profit organizations.  They each cover a specific area and there’s no competition.  Then they’re joined in a network, the United Network for Organ Sharing, and there may be other smaller networks too.  They share information about what organs are available and who needs organs, and basically these things are sent back and forth through the network.  Is that about right? 

UNDIS:  That’s correct.

RESNICK:  OK.  We know that today if you want to donate your organs you are allowed to specify a specific person that you want to have that organ, and if you do that the system will comply and they will only give your organs to that specific person.  Is that also about right?

UNDIS:  Yes, but if your organs didn’t match that person you’d probably want them to go somewhere else.

RESNICK:  Right.  Now, you had an idea.  Tell us about the idea, and tell us why and how you started LifeSharers, and what it is LifeSharers does.

UNDIS:  LifeSharers is a group of organ donors.  We all agree to donate our organs when we die, but we ask that our organs be given first to other people who have agreed to donate their own organs.  Anybody can join LifeSharers.  Membership is free.  It only takes about a minute to join.  We’re doing this for one reason.  There aren’t enough organs to go around because a lot of people are too selfish to donate their organs.  So we’re giving people a good reason to donate their organs.  What we’re saying to people is if you’re willing to give up your organs when you die, you’ll get a better chance of getting an organ if you ever need one to live.

RESNICK:  My understanding is right now about 80% of the people who get organs are people who do not donate their own organs.

UNDIS:  Yes, doesn’t that seem ridiculous?  It’s one of the reasons that there’s such a big shortage, and it’s totally unfair.  People who aren’t willing to donate their organs shouldn’t be at the front of the line.  You can only feed your organs to the worms or you can share the gift of life.

RESNICK:  So you do this as a way of encouraging people to donate, because they’ll get something in exchange for agreeing to donate, which is they’ll be sort of at the head of the list to receive them.

UNDIS:  Right.

RESNICK:  OK.  About how many members do you have so far?

UNDIS:  We’ve got over 1100 members in 47 states and the District of Columbia.

RESNICK:  OK, and anybody in the country can join.

UNDIS:  Everybody can join.  We welcome everybody. and we turn nobody away.

RESNICK:  Now that sounds, as you explain it, it sounds like a great idea.

UNDIS:  Thank you. 

RESNICK:  It sounds like there’s fundamental fairness there.  You’ve run into some problems however, is that not right?

UNDIS:  We’ve run into some resistance from the medical establishment, yes.

RESNICK:  They don’t recognize your group right now.

UNDIS:  Correct.  Well, they recognize us… 

RESNICK:  Well they know you exist but they don’t honor the wishes of the group, and if somebody in your group were to pass away and their organs became available, as it stands right now the system would ignore the fact that that person wanted their organs to go to somebody in your group first.  They would just go into the national pool and send those organs wherever they’re going to go, and they would completely ignore the requests.

UNDIS:  No, I don’t think that’s going to happen.  What we’re doing is legal, and everyone has the right to decide who gets their organs.  So if they decide to override or ignore someone’s legal wishes they run the risk of some pretty substantial legal liability and a whole lot of bad publicity.  So I don’t think that when push comes to shove they’re going to try to override our wishes.  They may not like what we’re doing, but we’re right and they’re wrong.

RESNICK:  But, to be fair, you don’t have any power at this point.  In other words, you don’t have any control over the United Network for Organ Sharing.  You don’t have a way to get organs.  If somebody in your group dies, it’s not like you’re going to be able to go in there and get those organs and take them home in a satchel and make sure they get where you want them to go.  So you have this great idea but you really need them to cooperate for it to happen, don’t you? 

UNDIS:  We need their cooperation, and I expect that they will cooperate as we larger, because we have the law on our side.  And let’s not forget, what we’re doing helps UNOS.  We’re recruiting new organ donors, and the more organ donors we recruit the more organs there are available.  So we’re all on the same side.

RESNICK:  And it’s also the rule in your group that if somebody passes away and nobody needs their organ or if the organ is not a match it goes into the general system.

UNDIS:  Absolutely.  That’s why I said it’s pretty obvious that we’re all on the same side and we’re all helping UNOS. 

RESNICK:  So what do they say to you?  What have people said to you specifically about why they won’t just honor your group and avoid the legal battles?  Do they have a reason?

UNDIS:  Some people say it’s not fair to put organ donors at the front of the list.  I say if you reward organ donors you’re going to get more organ donors, and that’s going to save lives. 

RESNICK:  Well is it fair to specify that your organs can only go to a specific person, and that person may not be as sick as somebody else in the system?

UNDIS:  Sure it’s fair, because your organs are yours. 

RESNICK:  But I mean is it any more unfair?  They say what you’re doing is unfair, but they allow people to give their organs to just one person.  So how do they reconcile the fact that they allow you to have your say if they like it but if they don’t like what you’re doing they ignore it?

UNDIS:  That’s a good question.  A lot of the opposition to what we’re doing I don’t quite understand.  We give people a chance to move up the waiting list if they agree to donate when they die.  UNOS doesn’t like that, but at the same time they will move a live donor up the waiting list if he or she ever needs an organ.  So it just doesn’t make sense to me.

RESNICK:  OK.  Fortunately so far nobody in your group has passed away, but at some point that is going to happen and there will be these organs available.  Are you guys ready to go to court over this? 

UNDIS:  I really don’t think it’s going to come to that. 

RESNICK:  But what makes you think that, since right now they appear to be budging?  What is it you think is going to change?

UNDIS:  Well, they’re saying they’re not going to support us.

RESNICK:  Right.

UNDIS:  There’s a difference between “I’m not going to support you” and “I’m going to actively oppose you.”  And right now their stance is “we’re not really sure that this is a good idea, we have some concerns and we’re investigating them, and for now we’re not going to provide a public statement of support.”

RESNICK:  OK.  But isn’t part of the problem that your members are scattered throughout the country, and in every region of the country there’s a different local procurement organization in place, and won’t it depend partly on the druthers of the people running that particular organ procurement?

UNDIS:  Yes.  We give our members a donor card that includes instructions to transplant personnel to call LifeSharers if a member’s organs become available, to get names of other members who are in need of those organs.

RESNICK:  OK.  And what if they just ignore that?  And they say “oh fine, I’m not calling this number.”

UNDIS:  Again, then they run the risk of lawsuits and some bad publicity.  The last thing the transplant people want is for the American public to think that they are overriding organ donation wishes of American citizens.  It would cause a tremendous backlash.

RESNICK:  However, you could take them to court, right?  But in a sense won’t it be moot, at least for that first person?  Because somebody’s going to pass away, they’re going to take their liver; they’re going to ship it to Alaska.  You’re going to go to court, but you can’t really make them bring the liver back and give it one of your guys.  It will be too late.  That liver will already be inside somebody, won’t it?

UNDIS:  Yes, that’s true.

RESNICK:  So what you’re waiting for is a test case to make a precedent, right?

UNDIS:  We’re really not waiting for a test case.  We really do think that they’re going to do the right thing and honor the legal wishes of our members.  Because what we’re doing is legal.

RESNICK:  OK.  Now listen, if people want to get involved, if they want to sign up, what do they do?

UNDIS:  They go to www.lifesharers.com.  They read our membership agreement, and they give us their name and their address and their email address and their birthdate.  It takes about a minute.

RESNICK:  And that’s it.

UNDIS:  Yes, there’s no fee for membership.  We welcome everybody.

RESNICK:  So who’s funding this?  I mean there may not be incredible costs here, but somebody’s got to be paying for the web site and the cards and all of this.  Whose money is this?

UNDIS:  I’m funding some of it, and we get some contributions from our members and from other folks.  It’s really not very expensive.  It costs right now about $2500 a year to run the organization.  That will obviously grow as our membership expands but I fully expect that contributions from members will fund it.

RESNICK:  What happened with you, or in your life, that made you want to do this?  I can’t imagine that you were just reading a newspaper article about organ donors and decided to do it.  Is there something personal here?

UNDIS:  Actually, that’s exactly what happened.

RESNICK:  Really.

UNDIS:  I don’t need an organ.  I don’t know anyone who does.  I just read about this.  This is a weird and, in a sense, silly problem.  This is not like finding a cure for cancer.  People are dying because there aren’t enough organs to go around, and at the same time their neighbors are dying and sending their organs to the grave rather than sharing them.  This is a problem that can be solved if we give people a better reason to donate their organs.

RESNICK:  OK.  Listen, can you hold on for us?  Because we have to check the traffic here, but we do have a couple of people calling in who want to talk to you…

UNDIS:  Great.

RESNICK:  …and I would like to let them ask their questions.  All right.  Dave Undis, the founder of LifeSharers.  Basically an organ donor pool whose members will get first crack at each other’s organs when somebody passes away.  If you want to ask him a question, 1-800-520-1KFI.  We’ll continue.  It’s the Bill Handel program on KFI AM 640 – more stimulating talk radio.

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(Break for weather and commercials)

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RESNICK:  Right now we’re talking with Dave Undis, the founder of LifeSharers.  This is a group based on the proposition that if you’re willing to donate your organs, shouldn’t you have first crack at somebody else’s organs when they die?  And that is not the way the system works now.  In fact, about 80% of people who receive organs are people who were too stingy to give up their organs in first place.  Now, Dave, we have some calls for you.  Are you ready?

UNDIS:  Sure.

RESNICK:  OK.  Let’s first talk to Laura in Oceanside.  You’re on KFI AM 640.  Go ahead.  You’re on with Dave Undis.

LAURA:  Hi.  I love Dave’s idea.  I had a question though.  In San Diego if you’re a blood donor your family, immediate family, gets the benefit of that also.  In the organ donor program, let’s say my child becomes ill.  If I’m registered as an organ donor would my child also go to the top of the list?

UNDIS:  No, that’s not the way it works.  But what you can do is sign up your child.  We have lots of members who’ve signed up their minor children.  And our members also specifically retain the right to donate their own organs to their own family members.

RESNICK:  OK.

LAURA:  Can a child be an organ donor?  I don’t think so.  Right?

UNDIS:  Oh, sure, yes.

RESNICK:  What he’s saying is they’re willing to…What you’re saying, Dave, is the child can sign up based on the promise that when they’re of majority they’re going to do this.

UNDIS:  No.  What I’m saying is that parents can agree to donate their children’s organs.  Then when the child turns 18 they have to make the decision as an adult whether to re-up.

RESNICK:  OK.  So there you go Laura.  You can do that with your kids.  Let’s talk to Lucille in Anaheim.  You’re on KFI AM 640 with Dave Undis.  Go ahead.

LUCILLE:  Hi.  I too think it’s a good idea, but I think there’s a few concerns you may not have thought about.  I’m a cancer survivor, and when I was going through treatment I asked about organ donors and I was told I cannot give.  And so that would leave me out of the loop.  There’s no way, even if I wanted to, I could do this.  And I also think that…

UNDIS:  Well, everybody’s got something that somebody else can use, no matter how sick you are.  Even if can’t donate some of your organs you can typically donate your corneas or some tissue, for example.  So, even cancer patients are eligible to join LifeSharers. 

LUCILLE:  But is that medically sound?  Because the medical profession…I was told I could not. 

UNDIS:  Well, they may not want all your organs but everybody’s got something that somebody else can use.  Remember a sick organ is better than no organ at all. 

LUCILLE:  And I think there is also an education thing.  I think people need to be educated, because I’m sure if somebody received an organ who had not given, they would be so thrilled about getting it and having their live saved that perhaps they would become organ donors as well as their family.  So, as good as your organization is, I know Rotary now is really going after people to sign up to be organ donors.  So there’s a lot of education out there that’s in the works.

RESNICK:  Thank you, Lucille. 

UNDIS:  Educational efforts in this country for the last 20 years have all focused on altruism – getting people to donate their organs because it’s the right thing to do.  Those efforts are basically failing.  A lot of fine work by lots of organizations, but the shortage keeps getting worse and worse.  We’re trying to give people a new and different and better reason to donate. 

RESNICK:  Are you sort of conceding by this then that it’s our fundamental nature to be a little bit greedy, that you’ve got to get something in return for the act of donating, and that to expect people to do it out of the goodness of their hearts is just not realistic? 

UNDIS:  Yes, absolutely.  We’re not fighting human nature, we’re trying to harness it.

RESNICK:  I got it.  Listen, I appreciate you coming on.  Now how can people get a hold of you? 

UNDIS:  www.lifesharers.com 

RESNICK:  And is there a phone number for somebody who is web impaired, or just through the web? 

UNDIS:  Yes.  There’s a phone number they can call on our web site.

RESNICK:  OK, what if they can’t get to the web site?

UNDIS:  Oh, I’m sorry.  The phone number is 615-356-3918.

RESNICK:  All right, that’s great, and we’ll have that number here at the station.  Thank you so much, Dave.